quizzkid
Master Craftsman
Spin me back down the years...
Posts: 297
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Post by quizzkid on May 22, 2009 12:48:50 GMT
We all seem to promote bands that are worthy of a listen or two, but what about the stuff that it seems to have a popular following but really leaves you cold and wondering is it just me?
Here's a few from the past, and a few from the here and now that I really don't get [other than maybe 1 or 2 songs], if anyone can point me in the direction of what I'm missing I'd be grateful, equally it would be good to know that maybe, it's not just me.
Past - Iggy Pop and the Stooges, Thin Lizzy, Black Sabbath Present - The White Stripes, Razorlight, Marilyn Manson
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Post by tullistray on May 22, 2009 13:38:22 GMT
Past - Elvis Costello, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, The Band, XTC, U2, Steve Miller, Heart, Thin Lizzy, Graham Parker, Fleetwood Mac past 72, Guess Who, Charlie Daniels, Metallica
Present, umm, absolutely everything found in the mainstream pipeline bar none would be my first response, specifics, Tupac, Dave Mathews, Georgia Satellites, Nine Inch Nails, Kenny G, Wilco (likely even with the addition of the great Nels Cline). O maybe a small heavenly star for, uh, who's the girl with the enormous bouiffant thing, Amy Winehouse, has done a fair job of literally aping the style of Lady Day, surprised to notice it does not sound too bad.
The one big time performer of the past 20 years that I will give a pass is Bjork. While I am anything but an avid fan I give her credit for having a singular muse, something I always give big extra credits for, additionally many of her videos, an area of popular music that I believe on the whole has done far more bad than good,(coupled with clear channel radio and the constriction of radio formats)is, in the case of Bjork, a format that she has taken to with real imagination and humor. And I will include all 3 of the girls who have had a play with Tull in recent years.
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Post by nonrabbit on May 22, 2009 17:36:55 GMT
Just off the top of my head - but I intend to think long and hard about this and other recent posts U2 I remember having a conversation with someone years ago who tried to convince me that this was the greatest band in the world . I just never got it!
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Post by admin on May 22, 2009 20:35:40 GMT
Two votes for Thin Lizzy? ? Has the world gone mad??? I'm kinda there on U2 though, I do think they are sporadically brilliant but you have to wade through alot of old cobblers to get there! I must confess though I am a bit loath to have a slag bands off thread without a let's big them up bit too. So, I am putting my admin cap on here and declaring that from now on for every over rated band past and present declared you must give their fame and fortune to a band who do not get the credit they deserve.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 22, 2009 21:02:01 GMT
Here are some bands or singers I don't get and my proposal for a transfer of funds and fans:
U2 boo-Psychedelic Furs-yay Doors-boo-The Stranglers-yay Steve Miller-boo-Neil Young -yay Dave Matthews-boo-Cake-yay Every single mention in Tullstray's post boo...except for two: Elvis Costello and Metallica yay Michael Jackson-boo Prince yay Genesis-boo-Pink Floyd-yay The Eagles-boo-The Grateful Dead-yay
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Post by nonrabbit on May 22, 2009 22:13:53 GMT
There's absolutely loads of them ! If you think over the years how many times you've thought God they're overrated! I'm with you on Elvis Costello as well - never quite got the genius factor that was talked about. To balance up as Col suggested - again off the top of my head - one band that didn't quite get the huge recognition they should have was The Sensational Alex Harvey Band. I regret not taking up the chance to see them in Glasgow when I had the opportunity. I suppose I thought that they were too rock and rollish which I didn't particulary like. I was wrong about that. They were by all accounts an outstanding live act - Zal Cleminson was/is a wicked guitar player and Alex Harvey was the epitome of the outrageous/eccentric/entertaining front man! He held the fans in the palm of his hand - sounds familiar AND I believe they backed Tull in a couple of concerts in US.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 22, 2009 23:35:23 GMT
Howcome Eric Burdon is overlooked as one of the original and greatest british rock singers? To this very day his voice is stronger and more soulful than Jagger plus Rod Stewart in their long past primes. Check out some Animals videos on You Tube...that 'long haired leaping gnome' ( maybe a predecessor of 'the mad dog fagin in tights') is a pretty cool guy.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 22, 2009 23:38:20 GMT
For Elvis Costello Doubters...try 'Blood and Chocolate' or "Mighty Like a Rose' For Metallica doubters : Try 'Re-Load' You know who else, I always didn't get? The effin Clash? Friends in college and beyond went ape$h1t over the Clash's albums and all I heard was Holly-Berry-early Who riffs recycled at a loss.
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Post by tullistray on May 23, 2009 0:58:40 GMT
Here are some bands or singers I don't get and my proposal for a transfer of funds and fans: U2 boo-Psychedelic Furs-yay Doors-boo-The Stranglers-yay Steve Miller-boo-Neil Young -yay Dave Matthews-boo-Cake-yay Every single mention in Tullstray's post boo...except for two: Elvis Costello and Metallica yay Michael Jackson-boo Prince yay Genesis-boo-Pink Floyd-yay The Eagles-boo-The Grateful Dead-yay I just came out of about a 20 year period of downselling the Doors, ever since the he's sexy he's dead bit Rolling Stone did, but, with the passage of time I am back to giving them some strong credits to both they and Led Zeppelin. Jim Morrison had one of the most classic, in the sense of traditional, singing voices of any of the rock singers this side of John and Paul. The End will always be one of the great hippie pinnacles to me, right there with Lucy in the Sky or Purple Haze, I would say Strange Days has stood the test of time very well whereas some, such as some Moody Blues stuff, particularly when that one guy starts intoning about White eagle of the north, I mean, no wonder this element of rock which Tull gets included in got a bad name. Now Genesis and Floyd? They both likely get a thumbs down from me after about 77, though in fairness I really have not listened closely to alot of Floyd after this period, saw the Wall movie back then and gave them a solid boot, maybe the worst movie I ever saw, I am quite certain I do not like Roger Waters as a man, but I do like his playing and singing on earlier Floyd. For Genesis part of my dislike is how they completely trumped Tull amongst people I knew starting around the Lamb, and will agree that the track Carpet Crawlers or even Dancing on a Volcano from a year or two later are right there with Tull's best.
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Post by tullistray on May 23, 2009 3:37:53 GMT
Howcome Eric Burdon is overlooked as one of the original and greatest british rock singers? To this very day his voice is stronger and more soulful than Jagger plus Rod Stewart in their long past primes. Check out some Animals videos on You Tube...that 'long haired leaping gnome' ( maybe a predecessor of 'the mad dog fagin in tights') is a pretty cool guy. Overlooked to some extent I would agree, Mick Jagger's superior in any respect I would not. I would need to be reminded of an Animals, War or Eric Burdon ballad that is the superior of say,Ruby Tuesday or even Time Waits For No One. I mean there may be, I know the Stones catalogue a heck of alot better than the Animals. And for ballsy singing deeply rooted in the South Side of Chicago, (say Little Queenie for instance, or Monkey Man, or lots of em) among the white boys I would have to say old Mick is hard to top right to today, when he is at minimum 65, and for charisma he is up there with Sinatra, Elvis, the Fabs, and, safe to say in this forum but less so elsewhere, Ian Anderson. And I believe having had a Dad who was a PE teacher really shows, I mean washboard abs at 65, pretty impressive. But doubtless I am shrouded by 45 years of Stones love, remarkable I have never seen them, and remarkable how songs like Street Fighting Man and 19th Nervous Breakdown and Mother's Little Helper haven't aged a day to me. But I will say Eric appeared to have been much closer friends with Jimi than Mick was. (Apparently Jimi snagged his girlfriend shortly after arrival in England, which I understand was a small bone of contention with them, but I could be totally wrong on both counts. There is in fact a neat little grainy video on Sugar Megs of Jimi visiting the Stones backstage at MSG in 69, I recall that he is talking to Keith, Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman, with Mick flitting about, his specialty, in the background.)
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Post by maddogfagin on May 23, 2009 15:32:51 GMT
Must admit to two acts that I can't seem to get into - the aforementioned U2 who I find annoying, pompous and overrated. The second is Meatloaf who for the life of me I can't understand. I've had meaningful and friendly discussions with Meatloaf admirers but still can't fathom his popularity. U2 The wonderful Judie Tzuke Meatloaf Mick Abrahams/Blodwyn Pig
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 19:46:45 GMT
Okay....Mick Jagger is no slouch...and needn't carry around Eric Burdon's throat lozenges in his spare time....but really,,,the Stones come up with far, far, far superior raw material for Mick to chew on...Eric Burdon is not that hot a songwriter and has never had great songs written for him beyond some early Animals classics...if you get a chance and see him live on a night that he isn't too Vegasy...you'll see what a great singer he still is. He's got a solid Tull connection...Mark Craney worked with him for awhile and he had a guitar player ( who died too young) who was also involved with Doane Perry in some LA area side projects. The Spock's beard guy who went jesus freak, Neal Morse, was in some of Eric's bands.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 19:50:15 GMT
This is a potential lightning rod revelation but, here goes, I never understood what's so damn boss about the Boss....a few good songs, a bit of over-rated passion and millions of fans who say he saved rock and roll...I've seen him live and my world was not rocked...I don't see what seperates him form the ordinary likes of, say, Bob Seger or George Thorougood.
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Post by tullistray on May 23, 2009 20:09:56 GMT
Totally agree with this assessment. I have always played the hand that I just don't get it as regards Bruce, and, most importantly, I had never seen him live. I am glad to hear someone who's opinion I respect who has seen him live say, yes, and....Though I don't doubt someone who went to see the GDead on either an off night or in a bad setting might say the same, I will still give Bruce a little rope on the supposition that, can all these people be so wrong? But of course, yes, they could be. And your parallels of Seger and Thorogood to me are spot on, kind of sounds like the same guy. The guy I believe who plies a vaguely similar track who is not a whisker short of brilliant is Dave Alvin, long with his own band, originally with X and the Blasters who occasionally reform. Americana at its absolute best and in that respect quite like the Grateful Dead, and of nearly equal integrity.
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Post by nonrabbit on May 23, 2009 20:25:15 GMT
This is getting spooky so far i agree with U2/ Costello/ Meatloaf/and now Springsteen ! We are obviously a group with impeccable taste ;D
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Post by tullistray on May 23, 2009 20:53:23 GMT
Okay....Mick Jagger is no slouch...and needn't carry around Eric Burdon's throat lozenges in his spare time....but really,,,the Stones come up with far, far, far superior raw material for Mick to chew on...Eric Burdon is not that hot a songwriter and has never had great songs written for him beyond some early Animals classics...if you get a chance and see him live on a night that he isn't too Vegasy...you'll see what a great singer he still is. He's got a solid Tull connection...Mark Craney worked with him for awhile and he had a guitar player ( who died too young) who was also involved with Doane Perry in some LA area side projects. The Spock's beard guy who went jesus freak, Neal Morse, was in some of Eric's bands. Again, completely correct, not sure if, impossible as it seems, the Jagger/Richards songwriting team has been deified enough, they did come up with a motherlode of great tunes, and may still, I have not really heard an entire record since the 70's and generally liked the radio friendly tracks, Mixed Emotions in particular, and would never go entirely on the reviews of the learned and their certainty that something like Mission of Burma or Sonic Youth is just IT, good though they may be. The Stones are of course guilty of world wide popularity, which the learned always feel the need to slam, even though they have never sold out their original muse. Even Start Me Up was a good song when first heard, but after being played in every football arena in the US for years it turns in to something else. I mean this is a song where I hear Mick to sing words that must not be noticed to be played so regularly, those are of course "You make a dead man cum", (sorry to those who may be offended) not sure if I have heard the nastiest rappers or punks outdo that line, (though I do recall Tom Waits to have used the same one in "Pasties and a G String") though I have heard rappers and punks outhate the Stones, and bully to them for it I guess, it's their world after all. Another great one from past their prime Stones, although really just Keith, is Wicked as it Seems, (how appropriate for Keith) for which there is a pretty cool video that I will try and post here if its still on You Tube www.youtube.com/watch?v=85aCbRjtV9w I don't mind saying that kicks ass, real heart of rock and roll stuff, which, of course, is not pretty, and is usually about sex. And that face, wow, many of us know first hand the face of a heroin junkie, somehow, to me, it has always looked good on Keith. He is pretty much everything I ever wanted out of a rock star, and he has worn it well for so many years it seems like its beginnings were a different lifetime, and it kind of was. Or this little blues tinged chestnut, Long Black Limousine, off their 81 record which may not challenge their great works, but is a great example of the Stones gettin out and kickin some ass, and Mick? Wow, go get u some son. Some people should never have to get old. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqOh31Ja0vQ Most folks have probably already seen this photo of the unsavory company Ian was keeping on his sixtieth birthday www.claudenobs.com/2007/08/keith-richards-.html hope that works Btw, as you likely know, I am pretty much dead certain that Andy's prior gig to Tull was Eric Burdon.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 21:16:49 GMT
Oh yeah...Giddings ran w/ Eric Burdon too. Local boys 'Red Meat',...a country band from keokuk Iowa who got into the bike messenger scene here in SF, attracted Dave Alvin's attention...he produced a couple of their CDs and took 'em on tour...check them out...country guys, who grew up very rock and roll ( the singer, Smelly Kelly is a Tull devotee) then did country as a sort of parody in punk day bands...and did it so well that they stumbled into successful country music careers. They have a website that includes info about their frequent collaboration w/Alvin....not to be confused w. red red meat (from chicago?). Their best song is called 'Lolita'
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 11:08:16 GMT
Ok getting really serious here
There was once an 18 year old girl, dressed in wild bohemian clothes who loved her music loved to walk around (pose) with the latest cult album under her arm. Life was good the sun shone and there were plentiful parties and friends to share the music ok sometimes heavy, complicated slightly overblown music but it was life. Then something happened that strangely shattered this young girl - suddenly she was told (and she listened cause she was young and vulnerable well slightly ;D) that her music was crap with a capital C and that she should listen to PUNK Even to this day she never got it - never understood it and never will!!
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rayman2112
Journeyman
Don't ask me, I'm just improvising.
Posts: 109
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Post by rayman2112 on May 27, 2009 5:57:41 GMT
Wow, I have to agree with most of the bands/ singers you guys have already listed... The way I'm approaching this topic is by thinking of bands that everybody just seems to adore, or who are widely considered to be "genius", then I wonder to myself whether or not I've ever gone on what I'll call a "listening spree" for that artist.
While I wouldn't say I hate U2, or Springsteen or most of the other artists mentioned, I can't say I've ever gone through a little phase where I keep going back to any of their albums. The only artist that has been mentioned a few times that I disagree with is Elvis Costello, I can listen to This Yeear's Model over and over.
Now, for me I got Tull, Rush, Peter Gabriel, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree, Stone Temple Pilots, and a bunch more not on the top of my head right now. These are bands that I will find myself enthralled with for a week at a time. Actually, I've been doing contract work down in Rhode Island, about an hour and a half drive and my steady rotation the past week or so has been Songs from the Wood, Heavy Horses and TAAB. I've never felt the need to play Achtung Baby over and over. I usually just keep a few U2 and other band's songs on the ol' Ipod for those times I'll go with the random setting to hear a mix of different stuff, but truth be told, I end up skipping a lot of them! Though I must say that Superstition by Stevie Wonder came on on my drive tonight and I was grooving along to that one! There's a guy that I can;t say I "get" but in time, I'll be giving him a closer listen... not enough time for all the great music that is out there to discover!
A few more that I don't "get" (but may in time) U2 Springsteen Creed Country Music Phish Fleetwood Mac Coldplay Radiohead AC/DC
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Post by nonrabbit on May 27, 2009 7:08:38 GMT
Yes see where you're coming from with Porcupine Tree - instant hookage as indeed with Sigur Ros (no connection just found them both round about the same time No connection with early Marillion ( I say early cause thats when I gave them airplay) or indeed Fish always thought that imo he was trying too hard and never quite came up with the goods. He had that "pretending to be" kinda thing. I'm not saying that he's a bad singer or anything (I'm sure he'll be pleased ) he just didn't have instant hookage to be repeated.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 27, 2009 15:20:36 GMT
I was so embarrassed that I listened to the first three Oasis albums incessantly that I felt i had to really, really try to like Radiohead....I failed. Of all the artists we have mentioned on this thread..Elvis Costeello alone, is an exception for me....very strange ...I wonder if there is some science under the coincidences...or are the U2 and Springsteen fanatics not posting?
When I was a deadhead, I really felt Tull was the absolute antithesis of the Dead and I was a rare devotee of both bands, yet here I read 'Skull and 'Stray also having The Dead in their Album piles.
Dead-mellow leadership, Tull- uptight leadership Dead-random sets, Tull-rigid setlists Dead-love their fans, Tull-barely tolerate their fans ( pre-87)
A mistake I only made once, in 1977, was taking LSD at a Tull concert...sad to say, on acid, Ian looked like a weary, cynical, profoundly unhappy man ( that night) and, compared to a dead concert, the lack of love in the air was staggering.
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Post by tullistray on May 27, 2009 16:40:51 GMT
Possibly surprising, but Deadbase, last I saw them to rate such things, (the whole book is about setlists and lists in general, re favorite other musicians, favorite sports teams, favorite food,) loads of lists has Tull must be about 20, with the usual suspects heading the list (from about 96) in the form of the Allman Brothers, Phish and Neil Young. Now that list is contingent on the number of respondents, I think actually Tull might tick a tiny bit higher, partly because I see the people just ahead of them are the Jefferson Airplane who I would guess would probably rate a bit higher, and about 5 spaces ahead of them both are Fairport Convention who I would have guessed most of the younger Heads would not have even been aware of. I can say I wore Tull t shirts to Dead shows on more than one occasion and would always get a Hey Now for my efforts. Have seen Tull with expansive head on several occasions, Passion Play was moderately uncomfortable, but usually it very much added to the enjoyment, TAAB, fuhgetaboutit, aided by well over half the crowd being in the same state of mind, on the second viewing in Nov 72 after having seen it merely stoned, (I'm guessing) in May 72 .Additionally I have seen them numerous times straight as an arrow, the Grateful Dead too. Actually on some of these dosed occasions I had the distinct impression that I was viewing one of history's truly profound artists, possibly true, I think so, and the rage elements such as one might find in a new born Dark Ages were an extraordinary thing to behold from near the front. A very old friend, a moderate Tull fan, was lucky enough to view the Passion Play from the front row with a head full of mescaline that is still legendary in our circles, and in 36 years his jaw has never left the ground, though any involvement with things such as that are 30 years in his rear view mirror. I was unfortunately seated out in echo avenue for that one, at points seeming like a thundering mess.
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Post by maddogfagin on May 27, 2009 17:43:05 GMT
One of the things this, and the "best of" threads shows is what a varied bunch of people we Tull fans are. Whether this is because of the influence of the music or, in some cases, the other way round where we are able and willing not only to make up our own minds about music but in many cases actually "agree to disagree" with our fellows. I would never slag off anybody's choice of music or artist but accept that in this world we all have our own choices and it would be a pretty sad place if we all liked the same thing.
It would make an interesting university thesis to actually pin-point the reason why we like Tull, or in that fact any band, above all others. It always amazes me the varied bands and artists that fans like as well as Tull. Some like Rush, others The Dead for instance, and that's only two examples - there are many more.
An interesting thread for the future may also be along the lines of "What are your other interests/hobbies" but we'll get the current polls done first, eh?
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Post by maddogfagin on May 30, 2009 8:17:49 GMT
Oh yes I do so agree. The first albums were "corkers" IMO and unlike anything else around at the time. It's difficult to explain exactly the appeal in the late 60's and early 70's but they were so different to anything else on this side of the pond. OK we had the Beatles, Stones, early Floyd etc., but who else played music and had the all important image as Tull did.
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quizzkid
Master Craftsman
Spin me back down the years...
Posts: 297
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Post by quizzkid on May 30, 2009 17:00:33 GMT
I'm glad a few others have added in the Stones, another band I cannot fully fathom, I do not own a single Stones track. Never made the connection with them and stood firmly in The Beatles camp.
I can't disagree that there are a few great tunes, but, like Springsteen, I consider that they are few and far between when you consider their wider catalogue.
Oasis, now, that's a weird one, because I bought their first 5 albums and enjoy most of them, can't stand the brother's Gallagher, and I know they have ripped off some great tunes and riffs but, for some strange reason I still sort of like them.
Never got the idea of Zappa or the Mothers or The Dead, but can appreciate that the "ethics" of the artists might appeal to many.
I never enjoyed Floyd until late in their career [The Wall] but when it clicked, the whole catalogue of their music seemed to resonate with me.
XTC, I have a love/hate relationship with, English Settlement is one of my favourite albums, and I enjoy digging it out every now and then and sort of rekindling an old friendship. Many of the others are simply NOISE!
I have to agree with those who don't get Radiohead, and Coldplay, only a few Coldplay tracks warrant a listening to in my book; Radiohead -Id rather listen to a cat using an aluminium scratching post accompanied by a teacher writing on a blackboard with a very dry piece of chalk and Rick Wakeman
and I really don't get Muse, sorry to you muse fans out there but I have really tried and can't get there.
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Post by maddogfagin on May 31, 2009 11:48:09 GMT
Love many of the songs on Pet Sounds (God Only Knows, Wouldn't It Be Nice etc) but I have never understood what it is about the album that sends many into rating it as one of the best albums ever recorded. Can anyone enlighten me please
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jun 1, 2009 14:21:10 GMT
Paul McCartney would say it's the bass lines - that they were their own melodies, not just support. From what I understand, this was the first album written as an album, where all the songs make a whole, and the production and attention to detail was complex far beyond anything done before. That seems to be a lot of it: compared to what was done before. But it still counts as the most acclaimed album ever. This is the article Wiki has on it, which isn't great, but it's the best I could find with a look on the internet: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Sounds
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Post by maddogfagin on Jun 1, 2009 14:57:56 GMT
I've got the vinyl, cd and also the book about Pet Sounds and believe me I've sat down and listened to it very many times but I can't get past the songs as individual entities (and most I like) to rate the album as one of the best ever. Maybe it's a difference between the American versus the English perspective but on the other hand I rate Love's Forever Changes as one of my top favourites and that's an album which leaves many people cold. Good thing I suppose we're all not the same Thanks for following up my query by the way.
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jun 1, 2009 17:46:48 GMT
I've got the vinyl, cd and also the book about Pet Sounds and believe me I've sat down and listened to it very many times but I can't get past the songs as individual entities (and most I like) to rate the album as one of the best ever. Maybe it's a difference between the American versus the English perspective but on the other hand I rate Love's Forever Changes as one of my top favourites and that's an album which leaves many people cold. Good thing I suppose we're all not the same Thanks for following up my query by the way. Reading and talking about music is great, and I appreciate the original impulse for this thread - "what am I missing" - and sometimes these talks, which are basically on an intellectual level, have certainly given me a new appreciation for something, but ultimately it is all about chemistry. You fall in love or you don't. What I think is kind of a shame is when people feel like they shouldn't like something because of whatever reason. Down with musical snobbery! You like what you like, just like you fall in love with whoever you fall in love with, even if they may not be the best person for you. Although, I tell you, there are days I think I could be in love with almost everyone (I do love that album too - much more than Pet Sounds)
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Post by nonrabbit on Jun 1, 2009 21:19:18 GMT
I've got the vinyl, cd and also the book about Pet Sounds and believe me I've sat down and listened to it very many times but I can't get past the songs as individual entities (and most I like) to rate the album as one of the best ever. Maybe it's a difference between the American versus the English perspective but on the other hand I rate Love's Forever Changes as one of my top favourites and that's an album which leaves many people cold. Good thing I suppose we're all not the same Thanks for following up my query by the way. Reading and talking about music is great, and I appreciate the original impulse for this thread - "what am I missing" - and sometimes these talks, which are basically on an intellectual level, have certainly given me a new appreciation for something, but ultimately it is all about chemistry. You fall in love or you don't. What I think is kind of a shame is when people feel like they shouldn't like something because of whatever reason. Down with musical snobbery! You like what you like, just like you fall in love with whoever you fall in love with, even if they may not be the best person for you. Although, I tell you, there are days I think I could be in love with almost everyone (I do love that album too - much more than Pet Sounds) That's true Rebecca also I'm relieved you didn't start a Love Chemistry Thread (me as well for that matter ) Mind you now that I've hit the 50 mark (+2) I'm still no nearer to answering any questions on that !!
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