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Post by stormmonkey on May 23, 2009 18:41:04 GMT
It is, indeed, Lost In Crowds.
"embossed on a carpet of green. I descend and – forgive me – I mean to get lost in crowds."
"Embossed on a carpet of green" - what else could this be other than a coffin set against a green cemetery lawn and ready to be lowered, to "descend", into the earth. The entire song is not Ian contemplating his mortality but the last two lines most certainly are. The ultimate way to get lost in a crowd - lol - the crowd at your own funeral as you are lowered into the ground. The double meaning? Well, one also gets lost in another crowd - the crowd of dead that lie all around in the cemetery.
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Post by nonrabbit on May 23, 2009 18:53:46 GMT
I think I mentioned on another thread once that I was a bit dubious about songwriters - in general - composing lyrics in the same way as say a poet. Anderson may be exceptional in that he conjurs up great images through words but their are times he has to use the word to fit the line- so to speak. I've enjoyed this thread though and yes I can see where you're coming from. You rightly said at the start that it wasn't the whole song that was concerned with his mortality but on reading the last couple of lines and especially the use of the word "embossed" meaning to mould or carve a decoration on the surface so that it stands out.... and the use of "descend" I am totally with you on your interpretation - I can't see it being anything else! However why do you think he put the words "forgive me" in there too? This is good fun!! lets do more! we'll use all the web space Proboards have in dissecting Tull songs (if that's how websites work
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 18:59:27 GMT
Well...it's a stretch...but an impressive intellectual and poetic interpretation....which I admire and endorse...frankly, I take Lost in Crowds more literally...an honest song about an experience that Ian repeats over and over again-air travel-and has written about ever since he came down from the clouds to cry us a song...which could be a jesus riff but really means, even then, Ian let air travel invade his lyrics; Black Sunday, No Step and, of course, Lost in Crowds...a meditation on airports and airplanes. The lines you quote seem to me to be inspired by looking down an Englands' greenery upon airplane descent...if it really was meant to allude to burial and the ultimate lostness in a crowd of corpses...then you and Ian deserve kudos...you do anyway for creative listening! Thanks for the fun.
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Post by nonrabbit on May 23, 2009 19:19:12 GMT
Well...it's a stretch...but an impressive intellectual and poetic interpretation....which I admire and endorse...frankly, I take Lost in Crowds more literally...an honest song about an experience that Ian repeats over and over again-air travel-and has written about ever since he came down from the clouds to cry us a song...which could be a jesus riff but really means, even then, Ian let air travel invade his lyrics; Black Sunday, No Step and, of course, Lost in Crowds...a meditation on airports and airplanes. The lines you quote seem to me to be inspired by looking down an Englands' greenery upon airplane descent...if it really was meant to allude to burial and the ultimate lostness in a crowd of corpses...then you and Ian deserve kudos...you do anyway for creative listening! Thanks for the fun. I think that the structure of the song neither dwells on airport travel or death - completely. In the first verse he explains about being lost in a crowd in the classic urban way.Second verse at a party and third verse in an airport. I don't get the first part of the fourth verse ie choices of wine or newspapers tho?? but he ends the song (fittingly) with being lost to the world I think literally through death. Lets see what Storm says
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 19:23:29 GMT
In which song/lyric does ian allude to the nasty, little 'tradition' of rich kids participating in group masturbation contests in school ? No clues...this is pretty easy.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 19:26:12 GMT
It is on airplanes...international flights in fact, that one can choose between a free USA Today or a Herald Tribune as well as, if like ian you fly first class, between sauvignon blanc and oaky chardonney
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Post by nonrabbit on May 23, 2009 20:22:09 GMT
It is on airplanes...international flights in fact, that one can choose between a free USA Today or a Herald Tribune as well as, if like ian you fly first class, between sauvignon blanc and oaky chardonney Haha shows how often I fly first class ;D
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 20:58:13 GMT
But I think everyone can get a crap newspaper ( trib vs USA)
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Post by stormmonkey on May 23, 2009 21:12:54 GMT
nonrabbit - thanks for your comments - I've enjoyed it too. I'm totally up for the dissection of songs/lyrics also and hopefully others will set Tull trivia questions like this one. In my view the words "forgive me" are crucial in setting up the darkly comic interpetation. This is Ian, ever the gentleman, politely saying: "Excuse me. if you will, while I take my leave" in the context of his own demise. steelmonkey - Thanks for your comments. I totally agree with you when you write that Lost in Crowds is about air-flight - the third verse and the following lines from the final verse; Herald Tribune or USA Today. Sauvignon Blanc or oaky Chardonnay. Asleep for the movie. Awake for the dawn dancing on England and hedgerows Indeed the papers would be picked up at a newstand in the airport or on the actual airplane. When Ian sings, "Herald Tribune, Herald Tribue, Herald Tribune or USA Today" accompanied by the beautiful and poignant strings (pardon my lack of knowledge of orchestral instruments but can somebody tell me if that is a cello, viola or violin?) my thoughts immediately turn to something much more grave than a feeling of social alienation or a desire for anonynimity. References to America and aeroplanes in the wake of 9/11 raise painful feelings and so, for me, the mood of the song at this moment has taken on a much more serious and sombre tone. The wine, the in-flight movie - (hey, do first class travellers get to watch the movie on a bigger screen?). "Dancing on England and hedgerows" - something many of us have seen, the shadow of our aeroplane dancing and flickering over the "patchwork green" as we drop in altitude. "Embossed on a carpet of green. I descend and – forgive me – I mean to get lost in crowds." It really isn't much of a stretch for me to consider these lines as the setting of a funeral. I can't really see it being anything else. I really don't believe that he is singing about the descent of his aeroplane in those lines. I find it hard to consider the fast-moving shadow of an aeroplane as something "embossed". The "sweat embossed veins" of a heavy horse? - dig it!, but not the "embossed" shadow of an aeroplane. Besides, the aeroplane shadow had already been described in the words "Dancing on England and hedgerows". For me, the choice of the word "embossed" - the second time Anderson has used that word in a song, also adds a degree of poignancy. Our narrator is singing about the end of his journey - coming to an end of not just an honest days "toil", but an honest lifes "toil" of hard work and artistry. Something else worth considering is that the flight is returning home to England. This is not the aeroplane of Rock Island heading off to Paris or Bombay. Our narrator is travelling home. The emotional performance of those last closing lines really cement it for me and if that isn't enough - the music resolves in a very final way with a sort of bell sound which suggests something religous or spiritual.
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Post by steelmonkey on May 23, 2009 21:20:59 GMT
Full disclosure: Till this morning, I had always heard that verse as 'Impossible carpet of green' glad to be enlightened ! herald tribune, to me, symbolizes everything about a world getting smaller and more generic..I mean...an international newspaper? makes no sense except in the concept of a shrinking world...accelerated by air travel. makes me remember looking at baseball line scores, in the Trib..over coffee in paris, berlin, Moscow and points more exotic.
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Post by stormmonkey on May 24, 2009 0:14:28 GMT
In which song/lyric does ian allude to the nasty, little 'tradition' of rich kids participating in group masturbation contests in school ? No clues...this is pretty easy. I have no idea. Give us a clue?
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Post by steelmonkey on May 24, 2009 1:05:45 GMT
Well...it is within a larger look at a life span and the clever bit that always impressed me is a bullseye about true adolescense. It contains one of life's great ironies...kinda like wanting to be old enough to shave then hating shaving the rest of your life.
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 4:06:25 GMT
It is, indeed, Lost In Crowds. "embossed on a carpet of green. I descend and – forgive me – I mean to get lost in crowds." "Embossed on a carpet of green" - what else could this be other than a coffin set against a green cemetery lawn and ready to be lowered, to "descend", into the earth. The entire song is not Ian contemplating his mortality but the last two lines most certainly are. The ultimate way to get lost in a crowd - lol - the crowd at your own funeral as you are lowered into the ground. The double meaning? Well, one also gets lost in another crowd - the crowd of dead that lie all around in the cemetery. Sorry, but I disagree with your interpretation, and here's why. You're not taking into account the dash that occurs after the word hedgerows. The full line is: "Dancing on England and hedgerows -- embossed on a carpet of green." It's the hedgerows that are embossed on the carpet of green, not Ian's coffin. Which makes perfect sense because the word embossed is defined in Merriam-Webster as "to ornament with raised work." The hedgerows are the raised ornamentation embossed upon the otherwise flat carpet of green. You are interpreting it as if the line read "Embossed on a carpet of green, I descend..." But that's not the way it reads. The word embossed refers back to the hedgerows, not forward to Ian. Also, if the coffin were being lowered into the ground, as you suggest, then the coffin would not be embossed upon the green, it would be buried beneath it. This is nothing more than a plane landing, folks, not a funeral in any sense. He clearly is a passenger on a plane, reading the paper, sleeping and waking up at dawn. The descent refers to the plane coming down, not Ian being lowered into the grave. And when Ian says, forgive me, he simply means that once he gets down, he does not intend to chat with fans or sign autographs, so forgive him if he chooses privacy by simply resuming blending in anonomously with the crowd. I have examined the rest of the lyrics and do not see anything suggestive of death or mortality. There is no reason why there would be a sudden shift from talking about his shyness in crowds and a return flight home to contemplating his own funeral. I just don't see it. And I don't see any dark humor in the last two lines either. Jeff
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 4:14:24 GMT
Well...it's a stretch...but an impressive intellectual and poetic interpretation....which I admire and endorse...frankly, I take Lost in Crowds more literally...an honest song about an experience that Ian repeats over and over again-air travel-and has written about ever since he came down from the clouds to cry us a song...which could be a jesus riff but really means, even then, Ian let air travel invade his lyrics; Black Sunday, No Step and, of course, Lost in Crowds...a meditation on airports and airplanes. The lines you quote seem to me to be inspired by looking down an Englands' greenery upon airplane descent...if it really was meant to allude to burial and the ultimate lostness in a crowd of corpses...then you and Ian deserve kudos...you do anyway for creative listening! Thanks for the fun. I agree. It does not strike me as having anything to do with death or a funeral, just a plane landing as you say. Jeff
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Post by TM on May 24, 2009 4:16:44 GMT
I just figured it was the hedgerows that were "embossed in a carpet of green."
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 4:25:38 GMT
I just figured it was the hedgerows that were "embossed in a carpet of green." You're right, because of the dash between the word hedgerows and embossed. The word embossed clearly describes the hedgerows. Jeff
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 10:38:25 GMT
Tell you what after we finish this thread we'll have plenty more questions to ask Ian at the next Q and A - more detailed ones at that
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Post by stormmonkey on May 24, 2009 12:17:54 GMT
TM and Jeff: On reflection, you are correct. The printed lyrics suggest it is the hedgerows that are embossed on the carpet of green. Apologies - I hope I didn't do anyones head in trying to figure out which song I was writing about.
The funny thing is though - I have re-listened to that section a few times and my natural inclination is still to drift towards my interpretation. There are a number of reasons for this: the much more serious tone of the final verse, the reference to newspapers, America and aeroplanes, the repetition of the word "tribune" which made me think of the word "tribute" and obituaries, the returning home to England, the strange image of dancing on England and hedgerows, the way Ian sings "Embossed on a carpet of green, I descend" seems more joined together as a thought in terms of singing and melody - there is something about the timing and phrasing at this point which creates a new thought/concept for me. The closing bell sound conveys a sense of finality.
I just don't want to be wrong now - lol....however, I suppose my interpretation was wrong. It's a fair cop, g'vnor. In my defense I'd like to say that I was taken by the clever idea of extending the 'Lost In Crowds' theme of the song to literally becoming lost in the crowd of ones mourners as you descend into the ground. My imagination got the better of me and I then extended this idea to becoming lost in the crowd of dead that lie all around in the cemetery. On an even grander scale I then considered, well...if there is an afterlife then by this point in accumulated time it would surely be a very considerable crowd in which to get lost.
Hey, I've just reaslised I've been waffling, You guys are right - clearly I'm wrong. The folly of creative listening, eh? Could be worse though, I knew a guy years ago who thought the line in Heavy Water, "Big drops hissing on the neon sign" was actually "Big dogs pissing on the neon sign". Or so he said anyway, he was probably just having a laugh though.
---
Ok, another trivia question and this one is not steeped so deeply in personal interpretation.
In which song does Ian make a passing reference to an iconic image from the long running BBC sci-fi series Dr Who?
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 14:20:34 GMT
TM and Jeff: On reflection, you are correct. The printed lyrics suggest it is the hedgerows that are embossed on the carpet of green. Apologies - I hope I didn't do anyones head in trying to figure out which song I was writing about. The funny thing is though - I have re-listened to that section a few times and my natural inclination is still to drift towards my interpretation. There are a number of reasons for this: the much more serious tone of the final verse, the reference to newspapers, America and aeroplanes, the repetition of the word "tribune" which made me think of the word "tribute" and obituaries, the returning home to England, the strange image of dancing on England and hedgerows, the way Ian sings "Embossed on a carpet of green, I descend" seems more joined together as a thought in terms of singing and melody - there is something about the timing and phrasing at this point which creates a new thought/concept for me. The closing bell sound conveys a sense of finality. I just don't want to be wrong now - lol....however, I suppose my interpretation was wrong. It's a fair cop, g'vnor. In my defense I'd like to say that I was taken by the clever idea of extending the 'Lost In Crowds' theme of the song to literally becoming lost in the crowd of ones mourners as you descend into the ground. My imagination got the better of me and I then extended this idea to becoming lost in the crowd of dead that lie all around in the cemetery. On an even grander scale I then considered, well...if there is an afterlife then by this point in accumulated time it would surely be a very considerable crowd in which to get lost. Hey, I've just reaslised I've been waffling, You guys are right - clearly I'm wrong. The folly of creative listening, eh? Could be worse though, I knew a guy years ago who thought the line in Heavy Water, "Big drops hissing on the neon sign" was actually "Big dogs pissing on the neon sign". Or so he said anyway, he was probably just having a laugh though. --- Ok, another trivia question and this one is not steeped so deeply in personal interpretation. In which song does Ian make a passing reference to an iconic image from the long running BBC sci-fi series Dr Who? Look, I'm not sure that it's fair to say your interpretation is "wrong" per se, because we are dealing with art. For example, one person may look at a painting and be struck by certain things in that painting, and another person may look at it and see something entirely different. I know there have been Tull songs I always interpreted in a certain way, but then later looked back at those same lyrics and realized that maybe the song is not about what I thought it was about all these years. Art inherently lends itself to subjective and varying interpretations. I might not agree with your interpretation, because I find insufficient support for it in the lyrics, but who can really say what was going on in Ian's mind when he wrote that last stanza? It's not like there's no support whatsoever for your interpretation, the word "embossed" kind of sounds funereal, if you know what I mean, almost like "embalmed," and there are those plaintive strings that you mentioned. Not only that but, it is well documented that Ian has a fear of flying, and that fear has been the inspiration for a number of songs. The song TOTRNR was written during a particularly bad flight, and the song No Step was Ian looking out the plane window and seeing those words printed on the wing. Therefore, it's not entirely out of the question that he might have been imagining some kind of air disaster and his own demise, after all most airplane accidents do occur on take-off or landing. I don't see enough evidence for that, but it is possible. So, please, do not hesitate or feel gun shy in the future to discuss your ideas. Jeff
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 14:33:21 GMT
In which song/lyric does ian allude to the nasty, little 'tradition' of rich kids participating in group masturbation contests in school ? No clues...this is pretty easy. Doesn't seem that easy to me. At least I can't think of it off the bat, and I had thought that Roll Yer Own was the only masturbation song. (Oh, Oh, Bernie, masturbation again....are we going to get in trouble with this one???) Well, at least it was you who brought it up, not me. ;-) Jeff
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 14:40:01 GMT
Maybe we should just be using some sort of abbreviation instead, "m-bation" for instance, or better yet "mation." So as not to offend innocent eyes.
Jeff
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 14:50:28 GMT
Is there some kind of reference to group m-bation contests amongst rich kids in Brick? I'll have to go look.
Jeff
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Post by fatman on May 24, 2009 15:03:20 GMT
Another thought, Storm Monkey. If there were something to indicate that the plane was flying over a cemetary, then the monuments could be said to be embossed on the carpet of green, and the cemetary could trigger those thoughts of death or dying, which Ian might harbor anyway at that particular moment because of his fear of flying, and there would be greater support for your idea. I do think your interpretation was interesting, and despite the limited lyrical support, you argued it well by brining into the discussion the music, the strings, the ending of the song and the manner in which Ian sings the line in question, as opposed to just looking at the lyric sheet to see how they were printed out with that dash in between the words.
Jeff
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Post by steelmonkey on May 24, 2009 15:28:47 GMT
I agree with jeff...all interpretations of lyrics are valid...and, to me, quite interesting...as long as we don't drift too far in the direction of secret messages from Ian. 'Brick' is not the song with the group masturbation lyric...but its close. Is Ferdy, the character from Dr. Who? mentioned in Automotive, Science and Engineering?
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Post by stormmonkey on May 24, 2009 15:56:56 GMT
Jeff and Steelmonkey - thanks for your comments. I enjoyed the discussion...I have a few other little thoughts on this I'd like to post later today, after I've finished the tedious task of cutting the garden hedge(row).
Steelmonkey - No, Ferdy is not a character from Dr Who. The "Doctor Ferdinand (Ferdie)" to whom Ian refers is Dr. Ferdinand Porsche - designer of the Porsche and Volkswagen Beetle.
You are close however...very close. This is not a person/character - it is an iconic image from Dr Who. Dr Who uses it to get from A to B, both in time and space.
Now, as regards the allusion you refer to - when you say that Brick is close do you mean it is on an album either side of the release year of Brick?
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 17:09:23 GMT
Whoa let's have a recap here Are we looking for *the naughty word* on TAAB? A Doctor Who reference? and what else??
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 17:55:58 GMT
...as long as we don't drift too far in the direction of secret messages from Ian. As one of the Global Leaders here I won't let that happen... he only talks to me
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 17:57:20 GMT
Afterthought ;D Thought I'd better add that smiley just in case there was any doubt
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Post by steelmonkey on May 24, 2009 18:50:08 GMT
The group self-pleasuring scene is on an album before or after brick. Ian sends me secret messages all the time...clever of him to disguise it...Steel monkey sounds like it's about steelworkers...but a close analysis will prove that it is really about bicycle messengers..the original high rise jockeys who work in the thunder and rain etc..keep me from falling out the sky is just a way of saying keep me from falling off my bike...no?
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Post by nonrabbit on May 24, 2009 22:13:40 GMT
..keep me from falling out the sky is just a way of saying keep me from falling off my bike...no? Academic answer .... No
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