rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jan 12, 2009 19:23:58 GMT
In "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll," a black 51-year-old bar server is killed by being beaten with a cane. William Zantziger, the 24 (or) 26-year-old responsible, was sentenced to six months in prison and fined $500. The incident happened in February of 1963 and the song was recorded the following October. He died sometime this past week at the age of 69. Someone on my Dylan list reprinted an article from Mother Jones magazine a few years back, which asks the question, whatever happened to William Zantziger? It's really a nuanced, non-sensationalistic treatment of the whole thing. Unlike in the song, although he did hit her with the cane, she wasn't actually beaten to death. She had high blood pressure, an enlarged heart and other conditions, and she actually died from a brain hemorrage brought on by the stress of the situation (she collapsed during the incident and died the next morning). I guess it can be argued whether that's murder or not, but that was the rationale for the light sentence, which was the main source of outrage over the incident.
W.Z. was involved in another big scandal later in life when it was discovered he was charging poor residents rent after he no longer owned the buildings they lived in (he knew, they didn't). He was taking them to court when they wouldn't pay and WINNING because nobody noticed.
In the end, it's all just so sad. Of course, he was much loved by his friends and family who saw a good guy in him, and I'm sure he was a good guy in his way. That's the way it is.
The one thing that's good, to me, is that even though it's always important to see all sides, I think too many people in my country underestimate how much better we are because of the outrage of the 22-year-old, pissed-off, self-righteous child that Bob Dylan was then, who ended his song with these words:
But you who philosophise disgrace And criticise all fears, Bury the rag deep in your face, For now is the time for your tears.
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Post by steelmonkey on Jan 13, 2009 1:13:17 GMT
Thanks for the education and information and remindeer to think of Bob Dylan now and then and again and again. I've always been a fan but feel like i only know tip of the iceberg about him and his songs....Idiot Wind, Don't Think Twice and an obscure cut with plenty of help from Mark Knofler, called I and I are my faves. What do you know about Rueben Carter? I know the song catalyzed a re-trail, I think he was convicted again or stayed in jail for other reasons and may have had bad things to say about Dylan's role....know anything 'bout that?
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jan 13, 2009 2:56:01 GMT
I read all about it at some point, I remember it did take forever for him to get through with all the trials. I think he was also arrested later for some other crime which he also didn't do.
All I remember about resentment with Dylan - as well as other celebs - was that he felt like sort of the "cause of the moment" and none of them stuck with him for the long haul. There could be more, but I think that's it.
Dylan is quite an enigma - I think he'd rather run into a burning building than write an overtly political song these days, but it's clear in interviews that his principles haven't ever changed. He did write Workingman's Blues for Modern Times a couple of years ago, though.
I sure don't know the albums as well as I'd like to - there are so many! My two favorite ones are "Desire" and then "The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan." Funny, I was looking over somebody's bootlist earlier tonight and he had a lot of Dylan/Knopfler stuff.
In general, my musical tastes run very wide, and because of that they don't always get to go very deep. One of the reasons I'm on these lists and webboards and everything is so I can learn from other people whose knowledge does go deep. If anybody ever wonders why I'm off topic all the time, that would be part of the reason. The moderator of this Dylan group is one of those people who really ought to write his own encyclopedia.
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Post by steelmonkey on Jan 14, 2009 1:22:27 GMT
The Dylan hard core nuts make us Tullies look like cereal box readers...I mean, they collect, pore over stuff. discuss, scrutinize, theorize, alpabetize any and all dylan stuff till the cows come mooing home...interesting topic...which bands draw the most fanatics, real gone fanatics, and why.
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jan 14, 2009 1:54:12 GMT
OH yes. My theory is that because he's so verbal, he attracts word lovers, which means there is much more written and much longer discussions. Last week it was all about deciphering which songs were written for Joan Baez. I mean, it's like theology: what does each little word mean? But you know, it really is that complex a lot of the time.
But then there are Van fans! There is currently a long winded discussion going on there about something that was played at a show in 1989. And what the best ever version of "Sweet Thing" was. EVER.
So what is it with Tullies? Seems like a combination of memorabilia and memories to me.
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Post by nonrabbit on Jan 14, 2009 8:23:39 GMT
Well personally I'm just not into all the deciphering of every nook and cranny of any piece of music or any type of art for that matter. Basically in a nut shell I really don't think any creator creates a piece of art to have it scientifically analyised. However fair play to anyone who enjoys checking out every word and it's meaning if thats what grabs them or if thats how they are inspired to do as long as they don't try to say that their interpretation is what the composer meant. That gets my back up ! All art is created from an interpretation of a feeling or emotion. Most times the artist themselves really don't know exactly what they are on about! There are exceptions, does anyone really believe that Gary Barlow's latest song with the first line .."Today, this could be the greatest days of our lives..." wasn't written with a heed to royalties or am I being too analytical From personal experience my ex is a musician and song writer and when he composed he would find a melody on the guitar and compose a song and then write the lyrics and more often or not some of the lyrics would be written to fit into the previous line and not with some dark or hidden meaning ! There are many different ways to write a song - their are some great poets and musicians- sometimes both. Amen
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Post by nonrabbit on Jan 14, 2009 8:38:18 GMT
In general, my musical tastes run very wide, and because of that they don't always get to go very deep. Same here -except for Tull Mind you what you've just decribed pretty much sums up my overall thought process on everything ;D ;D Ah the curse of the gemini ( and yes! I believe in horoscope types)
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Post by maddogfagin on Jan 14, 2009 8:43:01 GMT
In general, my musical tastes run very wide, and because of that they don't always get to go very deep. Same here -except for Tull Mind you what you've just decribed pretty much sums up my overall thought process on everything ;D ;D Ah the curse of the gemini ( and yes! I believe in horoscope types) Try Aquarius then ms nonrabbit - I'd be interested
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Jan 14, 2009 11:18:03 GMT
Well personally I'm just not into all the deciphering of every nook and cranny of any piece of music or any type of art for that matter. Basically in a nut shell I really don't think any creator creates a piece of art to have it scientifically analyised. However fair play to anyone who enjoys checking out every word and it's meaning if thats what grabs them or if thats how they are inspired to do as long as they don't try to say that their interpretation is what the composer meant. That gets my back up ! All art is created from an interpretation of a feeling or emotion. Most times the artist themselves really don't know exactly what they are on about! There are exceptions, does anyone really believe that Gary Barlow's latest song with the first line .."Today, this could be the greatest days of our lives..." wasn't written with a heed to royalties or am I being too analytical From personal experience my ex is a musician and song writer and when he composed he would find a melody on the guitar and compose a song and then write the lyrics and more often or not some of the lyrics would be written to fit into the previous line and not with some dark or hidden meaning ! There are many different ways to write a song - their are some great poets and musicians- sometimes both. Amen I think, yeah, some are more word oriented and some music oriented. Dylan has definitely been accused of, more or less, using music as a mere delilvery device for words, and that's what's strongest with him. I don't think Dylan writes to give us puzzles to sort out (and as you say, I don't think writers should), but he does have a mind that naturally works in imagery, making connections between things, and these very funny one-line zingers - according to accounts of people who know him, it's just how he thinks. And if you are into that sort of thing (which I am) it can keep you entertained for years! I remember reading an account by Bono of songwriting with him and he talked about how he'll come up with all these brilliant liines that just pop into his head and reject them because they sound "too Bob-Dylanish." I just wish he'd go ahead and give into it, because I think that when he's shooting not to sound "Bob Dylanish" he ends up being below average. Reminds me, several years ago I worked with a girl in her 20s who said every life lesson her father ever taught her was a Bob Dylan quote! But I do think it gets kind of icky when people have this need to know the exact ratio of love vs. exploitation when it came to Joan Baez (on the part of each of them), or exactly why his marriage ended, and if there was a "secret" one after that, and that kind of thing. Aside from it not being any of our business, I don't think we're ever going to know... Anyway, I see you can see both sides - how Gemini of you!
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rayman2112
Journeyman
Don't ask me, I'm just improvising.
Posts: 109
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Post by rayman2112 on Jan 21, 2009 17:13:05 GMT
Dylan is the man! but I do have to say his concerts can be rough...
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Post by falstaff on Feb 8, 2009 1:44:43 GMT
I can appreciate the craftsmanship of a song like "Hattie Carroll", it's obvious that Dylan was miles beyond everyone at that point, but I dislike the song for some very important, personal reasons. I don't like topical songs - and this certainly was topical at the time. These kinds of songs are relevant for that moment in time and date immediately. I think a much better song of the period that will be relevant forever is "Masters of War". Universal. Transcends eras, and likely, centuries. Take a song like CSNY's "Ohio". In another fifty years, the song will be a historical relic with a cool riff instead of a living, adaptable piece of music.
I'm a huge Dylan fan - he's been one of the defining artistic/musical figures of my life. I totally agree that Dylan fanatics tend to be "verbal" and have a love of the written word. Bob has written his share of good tunes over the years and has made some great music, but really, it's always been the words that are the star.
Ian, when he's writing well, can stand among that elite group, imho.
nonrabbit hit the nail on the head when she discussed artists not knowing what some of their own songs were about. Dylan is no exception. Often times, he's referred to his habit of slapping together a series of phrases, finding some rhymes, and recording the material. However, it doesn't have to be entirely unconscious inspiration. Songs like "Just Like a Woman" and "Like a Rolling Stone" are obviously written with a conscious design. Later, in the mid 70's, Bob went through a particularly creative period where the songs were written with design. "Tangled Up in Blue" is, easily, one my favorite songs ever written. The greatest love song ever.
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rebecca
Master Craftsman
Posts: 458
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Post by rebecca on Feb 8, 2009 20:36:45 GMT
I used to have a friend who didn't listen to anything but political music, and I did think that this was music that wouldn't stand the test of time, because it didn't have anything else really going for it - too often it didn't offer anything better, either, it was just whining. On the other hand, if that's what speaks to the person at the time, it's still doing its job. Not everything is meant to last forever.
But not all topical songs pass into irrelevance. This song, for instance, tells a story that is compelling and, like so many folk songs which are based in old stories, it will stay that way. It's got the added excitement of being written right at the time it was happening, and that only makes it better, but I don't think it's any less interesting or more ossified now. It still has a universal statement to make.
On the other hand, "Masters of War" is one song I can never get behind. In that one, protest has turned to hate and that's just too much for me. I'm still close enough to my Christian upbringing that hearing something like: "not even Jesus could love you" makes something flinch at my core!
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