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Post by Equus on Feb 27, 2017 17:11:19 GMT
I have created this thread in order to have a reason for posting philosophical opinions... I have this idea that if I ever was to teach someone anything... I would immediately assign some of the students to find out if I was saying something wrong. They should use any intellectual means to shoot my arguments down... Read any book that just may prove my understanding of the world wrong... and whenever they proved me wrong, I would reward them with an assignment... They have to find an alternative...
Now we know it's wrong, now find something better... For this is the next step forward... I would also assign another group of students to try to find evidence about anything that I said that was right... In this way I would establish a place where everything that is ever said, is also scrutinized... There is a prosecutor team, and there is a defense team...
The defense team has to be fair though... If it comes across information that proves what I am teaching to be wrong, it has to present it fairly to the opposite team... The assignment is to find faults in anyone's thinking, and seek to create a better alternative... Or it could be a book that we were reading... It would over time resemble a court where we are the only ones that can determine if we believe it or not...
So... This is what I mean... I am just a seeker, a rover if you may... I believe in many things, and some of them are wrong...
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Post by nonrabbit on Feb 27, 2017 18:08:24 GMT
Nice video - no scantily clad dusky maidens.
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Post by Equus on Feb 28, 2017 21:21:56 GMT
This is some religious questions I have been trying to make sense of...
It's from The Bagavad Gita... one of many sacred books of the Hindus... Krishna said: "Even if you do choose to see yourself as a worldly body that dies, why suffer this anguish? Your despondency steals your strength."
So, holding on to an idea that steals your strength may not be the best idea after all... but this is a religious proposal... Krishna who is God in a human form... talks to Arjuna. Krishna proposes that Arjuna shift his thinking from a negative point of view, to a positive point of view...
If Arjuna holds on to the notion that death is negative to the core... He will miss out on an opportunity to transcend sadness and despondency, and change it into happiness and peace of mind... Krishna proposes that Arjuna uses his imagination as a way to cultivate happiness and peace of mind... So, what I really mean is this:
"There is a very likely link between our fantasy and our ability to create happiness and peace of mind."
If Arjuna shifts his thinking from negative thoughts and assumptions about death in general, to the idea that death is not an option... Everybody will live again, and again, and again... And that we shall not mourn or miss those who are gone... but rejoice for those who have joined the force/heaven etc...
Anyway... If Arjuna starts to think this way, he's feelings will change... So this is a way to use our fantasy, to create something, that eventually will affect our lives in a positive way... By directing our thoughts away from a somewhat atheistic point of view, to a religious point of view... Right to the point and beyond, where fantasy can be seen as a tool...
And this is what I consider to be the missing link between atheism, and religion. Atheism always wants a why? What good is there about religion? I will hit you with my best shot now... This is what I think it is... Religion is a way of using our fantasy in order to lift us up emotionally, and in all kinds of different ways ... The best religions uses fantasy in order to create something good, and does it wisely... The thoughts, and beliefs that the deceased is in heaven, is a thought that makes it easier to regain energy and happiness... So it starts with what the atheist probably would consider irrational thoughts, but these seemingly irrational thoughts create happiness and peace of mind, and therefore turns into a rational result... (There may be a God though...)
The Dalai Lama once said that he believes that he has lived numerous lives before, and that he will continue to live many lives in the future... He said that if you think this way many problems will be easier to solve and bear... If the problem doesn't get solved in this lifetime, then maybe the next, or the next... The Dalai Lama uses this idea or fantasy in order not to get too frustrated and angry... The problems the Tibetan peoples faces following the Chinese takeover of the country in 1959, is ongoing, but The Dalai Lama tries to think of these problems in a religious and futuristic view... He also said that there may be some people who think that such a thought is just fooling one self, and they may be right, but I find it useful, he said... Combined with the idea that every little problem in the universe will someday find a solution... add unshakable religious faith to the picture, and hope is restored to the believer... So, the idea of many past and present lives, may just be a fantasy, but it helps The Dalai Lama to keep calm, even in the face of trouble... It is useful...
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Post by zobstick on Apr 6, 2017 10:57:22 GMT
Can of worms this Equus... I regularly have these sort of discussions on another forum, so it's interesting to see it here too.
I'm not sure that the void between the Theist & Atheist position can be bridged in the way you describe. It seems to me to be too polarised, in that the "belief in the deceased being in heaven" in order to create peace of mind, surely would be an empty and meaningless belief to the atheist that has no faith in the supernatural. Perhaps this is straying into agnosticism, which has always seemed to be a bit like fence-sitting to me!
I think that what religion gives to those that need it is hope of a better future life regardless of the truth of this, whereas the atheist looks to make the best they can from the here and now.
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Post by Equus on Apr 6, 2017 19:17:47 GMT
Can of worms this Equus... I regularly have these sort of discussions on another forum, so it's interesting to see it here too. I'm not sure that the void between the Theist & Atheist position can be bridged in the way you describe. It seems to me to be too polarised, in that the "belief in the deceased being in heaven" in order to create peace of mind, surely would be an empty and meaningless belief to the atheist that has no faith in the supernatural. Perhaps this is straying into agnosticism, which has always seemed to be a bit like fence-sitting to me! I think that what religion gives to those that need it is hope of a better future life regardless of the truth of this, whereas the atheist looks to make the best they can from the here and now. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this subject, I'm working on a response... It may take a while though... Still "thinking"
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Post by Equus on Apr 12, 2017 6:03:55 GMT
Can of worms this Equus... I regularly have these sort of discussions on another forum, so it's interesting to see it here too. I'm not sure that the void between the Theist & Atheist position can be bridged in the way you describe. It seems to me to be too polarised, in that the "belief in the deceased being in heaven" in order to create peace of mind, surely would be an empty and meaningless belief to the atheist that has no faith in the supernatural. Perhaps this is straying into agnosticism, which has always seemed to be a bit like fence-sitting to me! I think that what religion gives to those that need it is hope of a better future life regardless of the truth of this, whereas the atheist looks to make the best they can from the here and now. What I'm suggesting is that the potential of our imagination isn't necessarily limited to religions that were formed hundreds, or even thousands of years ago, and that we can create new ways of thinking that will affect our emotions and reactions in a way that eventually will lift us up, and not bring us down... If this is seen as a method, and is judged only as a method, we can create methods of thinking that can lift people out of depressions and restore hope and tranquility... If that's what we want... If that is so then the only boundaries, are the boundaries of our imagination... and maybe it doesn't matter if it's real or not... What I'm am seeking to create is a belief system, or way of thinking, that will help me to create the emotions and feeling that I'm searching for, and to create these new ways of thinking that will create the results that I want... Most religions seems to me to represent locked boxes, telling us how it is, and therefore limiting the potential of our imagination... There are ways of thinking outlined in some religions that are downright harmful to us... I call this the contamination of the mind, or the contamination of beliefs, the contamination of religion. We can get rid of ideas, or ways of thinking that are harmful, if we can identify these ideas as being harmful... Mahatma Gandhi worked all of his life to stop and reject the idea in Hinduism of the cast system... The idea of going to heaven if you have been good, and hell if you have been bad seems to me to be one of these ideas that can only make things worse... It seems to me that the idea of heaven and hell is an extended version of our lower self... This belief system seems to legitimize hatred towards those that we consider being bad... It could be argued that there are people that are bad, but holding on to hatred affects and contaminates our own ability to create tranquility and happiness in our own inner self... Personally I am not a Gandhi... I tend to get mad and suffer from thoughts of madness and anger from time to time... Especially when I hear about injustice in the world... When someone drives a car into innocent bystanders... or something like that... So I often find myself torn between the wish to hit these people hard and mercilessly, and my wish for happiness and tranquility, not only for selfish reasons, but for all of humanity... So, I'm trying to solve this thinking problem of mine... Should I stop all of these angry and vindictive thoughts, and turn entirely to wishing all creatures of the universe well, or would that be a betrayal to the once who are suffering from these atrocities committed daily in the world... maybe it's a matter of a balance... What is clear to me is that in this case I am utterly confused... When Arjuna stands in the middle of the battlefield of Kurukshetra, he is also utterly confused... According to Gandhi this battlefield is the inner struggle that goes on in every human being... It is the battle between our good side, and the misguided, or the bad side of our own self... Like Arjuna, I am not sure how to proceed... but I believe that this confusion, this chaos of mine, is the first step forward... There have to be chaos, before real knowledge and wisdom can occur... It can never be the other way around...
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Post by Equus on Apr 12, 2017 7:27:40 GMT
Can of worms this Equus... I regularly have these sort of discussions on another forum, so it's interesting to see it here too. I'm not sure that the void between the Theist & Atheist position can be bridged in the way you describe. It seems to me to be too polarised, in that the "belief in the deceased being in heaven" in order to create peace of mind, surely would be an empty and meaningless belief to the atheist that has no faith in the supernatural. Perhaps this is straying into agnosticism, which has always seemed to be a bit like fence-sitting to me! I think that what religion gives to those that need it is hope of a better future life regardless of the truth of this, whereas the atheist looks to make the best they can from the here and now. The void between Theism and Atheism is there, and maybe it should be there... I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to bridge it... but it seems to me that even atheism is based on "false" ideas and thoughts about the world... The idea that it is possible to find the correct answer to everything, seems to me to be false... William Shakespeare once wrote: "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." I believe that this goes to the core of the problem... The atheist can examine the world thoroughly, but he will never escape the question of good or bad... and according to Shakespeare, the notion of good and bad is always a deviation of the actual core of the matter... It is therefore a creation of the mind... a fantasy... The concept that everything is utterly deprived of any form of meaning is very hard to grasp... We constantly give meaning to events, but these meanings and interpretations of events are acording to Shakespeare, meaningless to the core... Therefore theism and atheism are both based on fantasies... If a person dies, we can give this event numerous meanings... Some of these meaning will bring us down, and some of them will lift us up... Is it good, or is it bad? Our thinking makes it so... The atheist can decide that it is good, and base this interpretation on the idea that since the beloved one was suffering... It is good that she, or he is at peace... These thought will help the atheist to regain peace and tranquility... but this is only one of many possible interpretations... The number of fantasies that can be used to interpret any given event, is widened when religion is taken into consideration... A common "fantasy" is the "fantasy" of the beloved being safe and waiting for your arrival in heaven... and that God in his infinite wisdom have chosen the right time and place for the beloveds departure... I don't know if this is right or wrong, since I cannot prove that it is right or wrong... Your beloved may therefore actually be in heaven... but if this idea is repeated with a strong belief and faith that it is right, then we will easier overcome these inevitable events of life and death... What I'm suggesting is this... The atheist can use these interpretations to change the way he, or she feels... The question of good or bad is a fantasy anyway... Now, before you, the reader of these thoughts, gets mad about these ideas that good and bad always is an interpretation, I would like to say that getting mad about something like this is also an interpretation, and only one of many options of the mind...
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Post by zobstick on Apr 12, 2017 13:09:58 GMT
This whole subject raises a million questions for which there are probably not enough answers - or, more likely, your right answer is different to my right answer!
My perception is that religion is a man made invention way back in prehistory, designed to provide answers not available to early humankind in those times. Ian Anderson got it right on the back of the Aqualung album cover - "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man."
As we have evolved in our understanding, and have discovered answers to the deep questions, then the importance of religion has become much diminished, and, although the existence of god(s) cannot be disproved altogether, science has provided enough evidence to point us emphatically in that direction. In my opinion, if god is supposed to be all powerful etc etc, then why the f**k hasn't he put this one to bed once and for all..!
Equus, if you are going to invent a religion, then good on you. Just don't make it one founded on fear (if you don't believe in god, then you will go to hell etc), or fleece your adherents of their money. Oh, and while your at it, allow them to have and ask questions freely, even if you don't like the answers they come up with. Other than that - Live and let live I say..
Hope this thread runs on - like I said at the beginning of this post, there are a million questions!!
Good hunting
Zob.
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Post by Equus on Apr 12, 2017 20:28:48 GMT
This whole subject raises a million questions for which there are probably not enough answers - or, more likely, your right answer is different to my right answer! My perception is that religion is a man made invention way back in prehistory, designed to provide answers not available to early humankind in those times. Ian Anderson got it right on the back of the Aqualung album cover - "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man." As we have evolved in our understanding, and have discovered answers to the deep questions, then the importance of religion has become much diminished, and, although the existence of god(s) cannot be disproved altogether, science has provided enough evidence to point us emphatically in that direction. In my opinion, if god is supposed to be all powerful etc etc, then why the f**k hasn't he put this one to bed once and for all..! Equus, if you are going to invent a religion, then good on you. Just don't make it one founded on fear (if you don't believe in god, then you will go to hell etc), or fleece your adherents of their money. Oh, and while your at it, allow them to have and ask questions freely, even if you don't like the answers they come up with. Other than that - Live and let live I say.. Hope this thread runs on - like I said at the beginning of this post, there are a million questions!! Good hunting Zob. Thank you again zobstick, I will try to answer this as quickly as possible... By the way... If anyone is a little puzzled about why I have a tendency to post Winnie The Pooh trying to think... Here's an explanation... I post the image of Winnie The Pooh in order to remind myself of my own imperfections... Winnie The Pooh clearly doesn't know what thinking is... When he is sitting at his Thotful spot, and he can't spell the word, thoughtful either... he keeps repeating the word, think, and that is not thinking... Repeating the word think actually eliminates any possibility of thinking about anything... Once in a while I may do something similar... Something that I believe is a good idea, even wise, but in reality it's really not...
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Post by Equus on Apr 20, 2017 7:36:36 GMT
This whole subject raises a million questions for which there are probably not enough answers - or, more likely, your right answer is different to my right answer! My perception is that religion is a man made invention way back in prehistory, designed to provide answers not available to early humankind in those times. Ian Anderson got it right on the back of the Aqualung album cover - "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man." As we have evolved in our understanding, and have discovered answers to the deep questions, then the importance of religion has become much diminished, and, although the existence of god(s) cannot be disproved altogether, science has provided enough evidence to point us emphatically in that direction. In my opinion, if god is supposed to be all powerful etc etc, then why the f**k hasn't he put this one to bed once and for all..! Equus, if you are going to invent a religion, then good on you. Just don't make it one founded on fear (if you don't believe in god, then you will go to hell etc), or fleece your adherents of their money. Oh, and while your at it, allow them to have and ask questions freely, even if you don't like the answers they come up with. Other than that - Live and let live I say.. Hope this thread runs on - like I said at the beginning of this post, there are a million questions!! Good hunting Zob. I have found that whenever you go in pursuit of a goal, there is likely to come surprising results out of it... When the Americans went to the moon, they eventually went to the moon, but in this process they invented many things that we use in our daily life... I recently read that Nasa scientists have pioneered more than 6,300 technologies during their bid to understand space that are now routinely used in day-to-day living. John F. Kennedy once said about going to the moon: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." The thing is that whenever we do something that is hard, we have a better chance to learn... This principle is clearly to be seen in the way Ian Anderson approaches his life and music... Whenever we do what is easy, we tend to stagnate... These religious questions are to me very hard to grasp... The goals are very high, and the approach is taken very seriously, but during this conquest of the mind, I may find something that is quit unexpected... It is also a very dangerous approach, because it is so easy to be led astray... A Buddhist monk once said that a little knowledge of Buddhism can be very dangerous, because it can lead you astray... This indicates that whenever we start on a journey like this, bewilderment is the first adversary that we will encounter... I believe that bewilderment is a dear friend, and that it has to be created in order to discover the unknown... This is not a journey to conquer new land... a quest to find a shorter route to India... This is an ongoing quest to conquer the very essence of, or concept of you... (I'm sorry that I'm not very clear when it comes to explaining the reasons behind this obsession of mine...) I believe that there a many other reasons behind this ongoing inquiry into the unknown, that is beyond my personal grasp of reason... In the quest of trying to change the very essence of me, I have found how hard that is... This have unexpectedly made me more forgiving toward other people, and even myself... Like the conquest for the moon, have given us unexpected benefits, I have found that I am a more tolerant person than the person I was before... People have to react according to who they are, how they think and feel... Changing who you are is an ongoing effort, and an effort that is very likely to fail... Nothing is easy... So, I may not find what I'm looking for, but having higher goals can lead to something else that is equally important, or maybe just... important... This is the first answer to your post... As always feel free to disagree...
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Post by Equus on Apr 21, 2017 7:08:51 GMT
This whole subject raises a million questions for which there are probably not enough answers - or, more likely, your right answer is different to my right answer! My perception is that religion is a man made invention way back in prehistory, designed to provide answers not available to early humankind in those times. Ian Anderson got it right on the back of the Aqualung album cover - "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man." As we have evolved in our understanding, and have discovered answers to the deep questions, then the importance of religion has become much diminished, and, although the existence of god(s) cannot be disproved altogether, science has provided enough evidence to point us emphatically in that direction. In my opinion, if god is supposed to be all powerful etc etc, then why the f**k hasn't he put this one to bed once and for all..! Equus, if you are going to invent a religion, then good on you. Just don't make it one founded on fear (if you don't believe in god, then you will go to hell etc), or fleece your adherents of their money. Oh, and while your at it, allow them to have and ask questions freely, even if you don't like the answers they come up with. Other than that - Live and let live I say.. Hope this thread runs on - like I said at the beginning of this post, there are a million questions!! Good hunting Zob. The back cover of Aqualung and the words of a very young Ian Anderson about God, is very interesting... Thank you for reminding me about that! Here is Ian Andersons words again: "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man." As logic dictates us, what can't be proven to be right, or wrong, may actually be right or wrong... but since there are so many different religions, and because of the fact that some of these religions contradict each other on a number of issues, they can't both be right when it comes to these contradictions... Therefore it is fair to presume that some religions are man made... I am a little skeptic though when it comes to the concept of logic... I suspect that sometimes we fall into the trap of dismissing concepts, simply because of our so called "logical thinking..." I suspect that sometimes "logical thinking" is stopping us when it comes to further investigation... Logical decisions represents sometimes our own limited understanding, and sometimes borders on the edge of this limited understanding... It may actually represent the closing of a door... Let's go on a little imaginary journey... A man arrives on the planet earth... He doesn't know anything about windows... He starts walking, and soon he comes to a house... From a distance it appears to him that the house is full of holes... Logical thinking, but it's wrong... We all have a limited understanding of the world... and when we push our understanding to the edges of this limited understanding, we tend to fall into the trap of logical thinking... So, if we succeed in arriving at the edges of this limited understanding, we may actually unknowingly sabotage further investigation into the unknown, simply because of our own "logical thinking..." I will try to write more about Ian Anderson and religion later... Still thinking about what he said...
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Post by Equus on Apr 22, 2017 19:10:53 GMT
This whole subject raises a million questions for which there are probably not enough answers - or, more likely, your right answer is different to my right answer! My perception is that religion is a man made invention way back in prehistory, designed to provide answers not available to early humankind in those times. Ian Anderson got it right on the back of the Aqualung album cover - "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all the earth when it was suited to Man." As we have evolved in our understanding, and have discovered answers to the deep questions, then the importance of religion has become much diminished, and, although the existence of god(s) cannot be disproved altogether, science has provided enough evidence to point us emphatically in that direction. In my opinion, if god is supposed to be all powerful etc etc, then why the f**k hasn't he put this one to bed once and for all..! Equus, if you are going to invent a religion, then good on you. Just don't make it one founded on fear (if you don't believe in god, then you will go to hell etc), or fleece your adherents of their money. Oh, and while your at it, allow them to have and ask questions freely, even if you don't like the answers they come up with. Other than that - Live and let live I say.. Hope this thread runs on - like I said at the beginning of this post, there are a million questions!! Good hunting Zob. I hereby solemnly promise that I won't attempt to create a new religion... Even if I tried I don't think that anyone would fall for it... No, there's enough of that... but I was toying around with the idea that new religious thoughts could be explored and expanded... What I referred to as the imagination of mankind... I just didn't realize that something like that could in theory lead to a new religion... I simply didn't realize the potential consequences of something like that... No... I would probably lead people astray... by the way... I really like that you end this post with the words good hunting... that is exactly how I see this... It is a hunt...
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