Q&A with Derek Lawrence (Jethro Toe Producer)

[hollowmoor]

Hello all,

Derek Lawrence veteran producer of Deep Purple and Wishbone Ash amongst others, famous in Tull folklore for producing the debut Jethro Toe single 'Sunshine Day/Aeroplane' and for recording the John Evan Band/Smash/Candy Coloured Rain in 1967 has agreed to answer our questions submitted via the forum.

So, get your thinking caps on again.....

Anyone interested in his work with Deep Purple can read his interview on the Deep Purple Appreciation Society website:

www.deep-purple.net/interviews/derek-lawrence.htm

Many thanks must go to Simon at the DPAS for putting us in touch with Derek.

[maddogfagin]

Hi Derek and thank you for participating in this question and answer session.

I suppose the most obvious question is the whereabouts of the fabled John Evan Band/Candy Coloured Rain/Jethro Toe recordings which have never been released in any form. Some you may not have been involved in and I also realise that some of the songs listed below may have been studio “jams” but do we presume that after all these years that the recordings are lost or are they lurking in a cupboard at Abbey Road or elsewhere?

These include:

How Can You Work With Mama? (reputed to be the first ever Ian Anderson composition)
Straight No Chaser (Thelonius Monk)
Take The Easy Way (Ian Anderson)
You Got Me (Ian Anderson)
From 21 Subtract (Ian Anderson)
On The 7th Side Of 9 (Ian Anderson)
Invasion Of Privacy (Ian Anderson)
+ covers of
The Man With The Weird Beard (Ray Charles)
Sock It To 'Em J.B. (Rex Garvin)

Graham, Cornwall, UK

[hollowmoor]

OK, the full list of questions for Derek are as follows:

1) When and how did you first come into contact with the pre-Tull ‘John Evan Band’?

2) How many sessions did you record with them and were they all at Abbey Road? All on 4-track?

3) The band changed their name from the John Evan Band to the John Evan Smash to ‘Candy-Coloured Rain’ to ‘Bag O’Blues’/‘Bag O’Nails’ and finally to Jethro…… Do you remember the different names and were you involved in changing the band name?

4) Did any particular members of the band stand out for you? Did you get on well with them?

5) Hi Derek and thank you for participating in this question and answer session.

I suppose the most obvious question is the whereabouts of the fabled John Evan Band/Candy Coloured Rain/Jethro Toe recordings which have never been released in any form. Some you may not have been involved in and I also realise that some of the songs listed below may have been studio “jams” but do we presume that after all these years that the recordings are lost or are they lurking in a cupboard at Abbey Road or elsewhere?

These include:

How Can You Work With Mama? (reputed to be the first ever Ian Anderson composition)
Straight No Chaser (Thelonius Monk)
Take The Easy Way (Ian Anderson)
You Got Me (Ian Anderson)
From 21 Subtract (Ian Anderson)
On The 7th Side Of 9 (Ian Anderson)
Invasion Of Privacy (Ian Anderson)
+ covers of
The Man With The Weird Beard (Ray Charles)
Sock It To 'Em J.B. (Rex Garvin)

Graham, Cornwall, UK

6) Many of us have heard your acetate of ‘Aeroplane’ and ‘Blues for the 18th’ released on CD by Line Records a number of years ago but the mix of Aeroplane is almost identical to the MGM single mix just a little longer.

7) The brass section had been mixed out even for the acetate, why was this pressed? Was it going to be the first Tull single before Sunshine Day was recorded in January 1968?

8) How did the contract with MGM records come about and why did it only last for one single – ‘Sunshine Day’/’Aeroplane’ in January 1968?

9) What’s the true story behind naming the band Jethro Toe on that first single? A mistake or by design (see attached review from Melody Maker 17/2/68) ?

10) A news clipping from Record Mirror (3/2/68, see attached) states that the band were to have ‘Sunshine Day’ released as a single on the Music Factory label in the US followed by an album in March ’68. What happened to these releases and if an album was being prepared then were any acetates prepared and do they still exist?

11) When and why did you involvement with the band end?

12) Do you have any photos of yourself with the band or in the studio around this time?

13) Are you going to write your autobiography?


These have now been sent off to him and we look forward to his answers.

[maddogfagin]

Sept 7, 2011 9:58:10 GMT hollowmoor said:

OK, the full list of questions for Derek are as follows:

1) When and how did you first come into contact with the pre-Tull ‘John Evan Band’?

2) How many sessions did you record with them and were they all at Abbey Road? All on 4-track?

3) The band changed their name from the John Evan Band to the John Evan Smash to ‘Candy-Coloured Rain’ to ‘Bag O’Blues’/‘Bag O’Nails’ and finally to Jethro…… Do you remember the different names and were you involved in changing the band name?

4) Did any particular members of the band stand out for you? Did you get on well with them?

5) Hi Derek and thank you for participating in this question and answer session.

I suppose the most obvious question is the whereabouts of the fabled John Evan Band/Candy Coloured Rain/Jethro Toe recordings which have never been released in any form. Some you may not have been involved in and I also realise that some of the songs listed below may have been studio “jams” but do we presume that after all these years that the recordings are lost or are they lurking in a cupboard at Abbey Road or elsewhere?

These include:

How Can You Work With Mama? (reputed to be the first ever Ian Anderson composition)
Straight No Chaser (Thelonius Monk)
Take The Easy Way (Ian Anderson)
You Got Me (Ian Anderson)
From 21 Subtract (Ian Anderson)
On The 7th Side Of 9 (Ian Anderson)
Invasion Of Privacy (Ian Anderson)
+ covers of
The Man With The Weird Beard (Ray Charles)
Sock It To 'Em J.B. (Rex Garvin)

Graham, Cornwall, UK

6) Many of us have heard your acetate of ‘Aeroplane’ and ‘Blues for the 18th’ released on CD by Line Records a number of years ago but the mix of Aeroplane is almost identical to the MGM single mix just a little longer.

7) The brass section had been mixed out even for the acetate, why was this pressed? Was it going to be the first Tull single before Sunshine Day was recorded in January 1968?

8) How did the contract with MGM records come about and why did it only last for one single – ‘Sunshine Day’/’Aeroplane’ in January 1968?

9) What’s the true story behind naming the band Jethro Toe on that first single? A mistake or by design (see attached review from Melody Maker 17/2/68) ?

10) A news clipping from Record Mirror (3/2/68, see attached) states that the band were to have ‘Sunshine Day’ released as a single on the Music Factory label in the US followed by an album in March ’68. What happened to these releases and if an album was being prepared then were any acetates prepared and do they still exist?

11) When and why did you involvement with the band end?

12) Do you have any photos of yourself with the band or in the studio around this time?

13) Are you going to write your autobiography?


These have now been sent off to him and we look forward to his answers.

Thanks hollowmoor for your time and efforts with this. Should have some very interesting answers.

[steelmonkey]

Good questions ! never heard of some of those early I.A. song titles what's up with the Arthur lee/Love style names? (from 21 subtract, the 7th side of 9).

[hollowmoor]

Hello all,

Well, it took a little more time than I had planned (and my apologies for that) but here it is: the (very) long awaited Q&A with Derek Lawrence..........

Derek has sent in his replies to the questions by e-mail. Short and sweet but interesting stuff nontheless.

Here we go:

1) When and how did you first come into contact with the pre-Tull ‘John Evan Band’?
I believe it was Ronnie Beck at Feldmans Music [who] had gone up to Blackpool to [see the] John Evan Smash. He knew I had more or less an open door to MGM [and] asked me if I was interested.

2) How many sessions did you record with them and were they all at Abbey Road? All on 4-track?
The four Candy Coloured Rain tracks were recorded at Abbey Road but Sunshine Day/Aeroplane were recorded at CBS Studios New Bond Street

3) The band changed their name from the 'John Evan Band' to the 'John Evan Smash' to ‘Candy-Coloured Rain’ to ‘Bag O’Blues’/‘Bag O’Nails’ and finally to 'Jethro……' Do you remember the different names and were you involved in changing the band name?
I wasn't involved in the name changes apart from Candy Coloured Rain and that was totally my idea. To be honest I thought the tracks were Arty Farty and that name seemed to fit

4) Did any particular members of the band stand out for you? Did you get on well with them?
I suppose because I was a Rock producer I got on and spent time with Mick Abrahams

5) Hi Derek and thank you for participating in this question and answer session.

I suppose the most obvious question is the whereabouts of the fabled John Evan Band/Candy Coloured Rain/Jethro Toe recordings which have never been released in any form. Some you may not have been involved in and I also realise that some of the songs listed below may have been studio “jams” but do we presume that after all these years that the recordings are lost or are they lurking in a cupboard at Abbey Road or elsewhere?

These include:

How Can You Work With Mama? (reputed to be the first ever Ian Anderson composition)
Straight No Chaser (Thelonius Monk)
Take The Easy Way (Ian Anderson)
You Got Me (Ian Anderson)
From 21 Subtract (Ian Anderson)
On The 7th Side Of 9 (Ian Anderson)
Invasion Of Privacy (Ian Anderson)
+ covers of
The Man With The Weird Beard (Ray Charles)
Sock It To 'Em J.B. (Rex Garvin)

Graham, Cornwall, UK

Obviously I did at least six tracks but if my memory serves me right at CBS we did four tracks that being Sunshine Day, Aeroplane and I think with brass Sock it to me and one other.
The Candy Coloured Rain tracks were From 21 Subtract, Blues for 18th, On the 7th side of 9, Invasion of Privacy recorded at Abbey Road

6) Many of us have heard your acetate of ‘Aeroplane’ and ‘Blues for the 18th’ released on CD by Line Records a number of years ago but the mix of Aeroplane is almost identical to the MGM single mix just a little longer. The brass section had been mixed out even for the acetate, why was this pressed? Was it going to be the first Tull single before Sunshine Day was recorded in January 1968?
They are basically the same takes with the odd change. When it was decided that the brass were going those tracks were wiped.

7) How did the contract with MGM records come about and why did it only last for one single – ‘Sunshine Day’/’Aeroplane’ in January 1968?
I had a deal with MGM and placed them on that

8) What’s the true story behind naming the band Jethro Toe on that first single? A mistake or by design (see attached review from Melody Maker 17/2/68)?
Ian called me to say [what] the name of the band was now and I had never heard of a seed drill never mind the inventor so I thought he said Jethro Toe and that's what I told the record company

9) A news clipping from Record Mirror (3/2/68, see attached) states that the band were to have ‘Sunshine Day’ released as a single on the Music Factory label in the US followed by an album in March ’68. What happened to these releases and if an album was being prepared then were any acetates prepared and do they still exist?
I think that was basically Terry [Ellis] and Chris [Wright] bull$h1tting I had no knowledge of those stories

10) When and why did your involvement with the band end?
Terry and Chris wanted me out. I was more a heavy rock guy and I think they were right

11) Do you have any photos of yourself with the band or in the studio around this time?
No

12) Are you going to write your autobiography?
I've promised a publisher I will but we will have to wait and see


Follow up questions:

1) Other accounts of the pre Jethro Tull recording history have ‘Candy Coloured Rain’ recordings taking place at the CBS studios in Bond St in September 1967 with a follow up session as the ‘John Evan Band’ in October at Abbey Road producing Aeroplane/Blues for the 18th of which an acetate exists. Does this sound likely as it contradicts your memories of where tracks were recorded?
Wasn’t the session that produced Sunshine Day much later than the others – in January 1968 at Abbey Road with Mick Abrahams?
All the records I made for MGM were recorded at CBS and for confirmation the label states Mike Ross as engineer and he was at Bond Street.
The Candy Coloured Rain tracks were recorded at Abbey Road Studio Three.

2) Does your acetate of Sunshine Day have anything on the B side?
No B side

2) A book on Tull has stated that you brought in Tony Wilson to provide backing vocals on some of these pre-Tull sessions. What are your memories of this?
I brought Tony in because I needed good harmonies recorded quickly. Tony only sang on the Bond Street tracks, the Candy tracks were meant to be less Pop

4) Did you introduce Ritchie Blackmore to the band and did you ever suggest that he should join if only for the recordings?
I don’t recall introducing or talking about Richie to the band

[steelmonkey]

Excellent, interesting, history-vitamin requirement Q and A...but the biggest question un-answered: how do we hear those early songs ? Can't remember if any were on the John Evans Band cassette...maybe the covers and the mama song...but not all of them, for sure.

[maddogfagin]

Apr 4, 2012 17:29:45 GMT steelmonkey said:

Excellent, interesting, history-vitamin requirement Q and A...but the biggest question un-answered: how do we hear those early songs ? Can't remember if any were on the John Evans Band cassette...maybe the covers and the mama song...but not all of them, for sure.

As I understand it, and the memory of this goes back 20+ years, Derek Lawrence only kept copies of the songs on acetates and not on tape. These acetates are possibly still in the possession of the families of former Tull members. Dave Rees was able to purchase a rather damaged reel to reel tape of the songs a long time ago which I assume he still has. Dave played them to me once but did not allow copies to be made as he dished out a lot of money for the tape, and he did not know if IA wanted them put into circulation.

They are quite ordinary songs and nothing to write home about and the audio quality is not good. There is certainly nothing in these compositions to suggest the lyrical and composition skills of IA with Heavy Horses, Passion Play, TAAB etc., which would arrive later.

[maddogfagin]

www.youtube.com/watch&v=BQ8QWCsMdyw

Published on 14 Jan 2013 by UKRockHistory

His thoughts about Toe/Tull are at the 3 minute stage.

UKRockHistory have even used an image of my copy of the red Toe demo label record for the video.

Quite chuffed really ;D

[argentull]

RIP Derek, and thanks for your early contribution to Jethro TUll.

This wa sposted today on the Deep Purple Thehighwaystar fansite:

Andy Powell of Wishbone Ash wrote on his band’s facebook today, May 14, 2020:



With great sadness, I have just received news from friend and journalist Dave Ling, that our old friend and the architect of our first 3 albums, including the wonderful Argus album, Derek Lawrence, has passed away. Derek left us yesterday at age 78.



As the original record producer for Deep Purple, Derek was the connector, the catalyst if you will, after my onstage jam with Ritchie Blackmore at the Dunstable Civic Auditoreum. Ritchie made the call to Derek and from there we got to speak with Don Shane at Universal City, which led to the launch of our recording career.

[maddogfagin]

May 15, 2020 18:21:53 GMT argentull said:

RIP Derek, and thanks for your early contribution to Jethro TUll.

This wa sposted today on the Deep Purple Thehighwaystar fansite:

Andy Powell of Wishbone Ash wrote on his band’s facebook today, May 14, 2020:

With great sadness, I have just received news from friend and journalist Dave Ling, that our old friend and the architect of our first 3 albums, including the wonderful Argus album, Derek Lawrence, has passed away. Derek left us yesterday at age 78.

As the original record producer for Deep Purple, Derek was the connector, the catalyst if you will, after my onstage jam with Ritchie Blackmore at the Dunstable Civic Auditoreum. Ritchie made the call to Derek and from there we got to speak with Don Shane at Universal City, which led to the launch of our recording career.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Lawrence

Derek Lawrence (16 November 1941 – 13 May 2020)[1][better source needed] was an English record producer, famous for his work for Joe Meek's Outlaws,[2] Deep Purple,[3] Flash,[4] Machiavel and Wishbone Ash.

Lawrence came in contact with Meek circa at the end of 1963, when he managed a group, Laurie Black and the Men of Mystery, that won a recording session at Joe Meek's studio. He continued working for him until 1965.[5] He brought him Merseybeaters Freddie Starr and the Midnighters.

In the late 1960s, he worked for Harold Shampan at Film Music (part of Top Rank) and as freelance producer (inspired by Meek) for The Pretty Things, The Zephyrs, The V.I.P.'s, The Nocturnes etc. He produced Jethro Tull's debut single "Sunshine Day" (1968). He also produced Deep Purple's first three albums, the first at Pye Studios in London and the next two at De Lane Lea Studios, Kingsway, London. He produced Flash's first two albums, Flash (1972) and In The Can (1973), both at De Lane Lea.[5] After struggling with Flash's ex-Yes guitarist, Peter Banks, he recommended that the band replace Banks, and suggested several top names. It was advice that they failed to heed, which led to the band's abrupt break up while on tour after the release of their third self-produced album, Out Of Our Hands (1973). He produced Wishbone Ash's first three albums Wishbone Ash (1970), Pilgrimage (1971) and Argus (1972), and returned to produce their ninth album No Smoke Without Fire (1978).[5]

In 1974, Lawrence partnered with noted session musician Big Jim Sullivan to form the record label Retreat Records,[5] also the home for Sullivan's Big Jim's Back (1975). Lawrence co-produced Sullivan's new band Tiger,[5] featuring future Samson vocalist Nicky Moore, who released three albums before splitting up. Stateside, Lawrence and Sullivan co-produced the first two albums by the Kiss championed Casablanca Records signing Angel,[5] Angel (1975) and Helluva Band (1976), respectively. Lawrence also helmed Legs Diamond's self-titled 1976 debut. At the turn of the decade, he oversaw the MCA debuts by a pair of NWOBHM contenders, Fist's Turn the Hell On[5] and Stand Up and Fight by Quartz, both issued in 1980. Returning to his home country in 1979, Lawrence reduced his involvement, but worked with both Carl Wayne and Hot Chocolate's Tony Wilson in the 1980s.[5]

Lawrence died on 13 May 2020, at the age of 78.